07.06.2011 - 20:49
Unclear, On a Cleard Day?
Melody at that Point is an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, is it still an Ab dim Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Bg
07.06.2011 - 21:28
On Tue, 7 Jun 2011, Bg wrote:
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, is it still an Ab dim Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Isn't that usually done in G? (ICBW) Anyway, that is definitely an
awkward spot in the tune. Sometimes it makes sense to just pay attention
to where the chord is going, and if there is dissonance against the
melody, just let it resolve. In this case, you're moving to ii. Think of
the Ebb (D) in that dim chord as the v->ii. Or try harmonic minor leading
to ii.
MK
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, is it still an Ab dim Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Isn't that usually done in G? (ICBW) Anyway, that is definitely an
awkward spot in the tune. Sometimes it makes sense to just pay attention
to where the chord is going, and if there is dissonance against the
melody, just let it resolve. In this case, you're moving to ii. Think of
the Ebb (D) in that dim chord as the v->ii. Or try harmonic minor leading
to ii.
MK
07.06.2011 - 21:41
In my experience the Maj7th and 9th of the key [2 notes you refer to]
sound best as the top voice on flat 3 diminished[which of course is
tonic diminished{ there being only 3 dim chords} ] and are the most
often used non chord tone melody notes in Standards or Tonality based
songs. * The flat 6th[d flat] is often used inside the chord ie: F
Ab Cb E becomes F Ab Db E . of course you can add another 3rd
interval on top F Ab Cb E G producing F dim maj 7 Nine. Or just
move the voicings up a 3rd to Ab Cb D G or Ab Cb E G .
. The 11 tone is less often used in my experience. There
are many voicings and inversions of the above but this is the basis ,
"In songs", in the sense of the song/ chord function you mention.
Of course when playing symmetrical diminished patterns all inversions
and all step above[high degree] colors can be employed but then you
are borrowing a 12 tone or math based technique and forcing it on
the key which is really a different topic.
Greg Clayton
* How long has this been going on, Someday My Prince will come,
My Romance, original first chord of Stella, original chord in Dm
Alone together Bm E7 is really Ab dim w E in melody. Many many many
more
sound best as the top voice on flat 3 diminished[which of course is
tonic diminished{ there being only 3 dim chords} ] and are the most
often used non chord tone melody notes in Standards or Tonality based
songs. * The flat 6th[d flat] is often used inside the chord ie: F
Ab Cb E becomes F Ab Db E . of course you can add another 3rd
interval on top F Ab Cb E G producing F dim maj 7 Nine. Or just
move the voicings up a 3rd to Ab Cb D G or Ab Cb E G .
. The 11 tone is less often used in my experience. There
are many voicings and inversions of the above but this is the basis ,
"In songs", in the sense of the song/ chord function you mention.
Of course when playing symmetrical diminished patterns all inversions
and all step above[high degree] colors can be employed but then you
are borrowing a 12 tone or math based technique and forcing it on
the key which is really a different topic.
Greg Clayton
* How long has this been going on, Someday My Prince will come,
My Romance, original first chord of Stella, original chord in Dm
Alone together Bm E7 is really Ab dim w E in melody. Many many many
more
07.06.2011 - 22:10
Bill of course I forgot your real question was whether to
replace the note or add the extension
I guess this depends on what comes before and after [voice
leading texture etc] and what is playable on the guitar .
As I get more wise I subscribe to Joe Pass's idea of "if it's
too hard to grab forget it" This is of course relative to both
player and context.
You play great chords no worries there !
Greg C
replace the note or add the extension
I guess this depends on what comes before and after [voice
leading texture etc] and what is playable on the guitar .
As I get more wise I subscribe to Joe Pass's idea of "if it's
too hard to grab forget it" This is of course relative to both
player and context.
You play great chords no worries there !
Greg C
07.06.2011 - 23:20
On Jun 7, 2:490pm, Bg <ottg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is 0an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a 0half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, 0is it still 0an Ab dim 0Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Bg
Color tones are always added ABOVE the note they're replacing in the
chord (basic arranging 101).
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is 0an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a 0half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, 0is it still 0an Ab dim 0Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Bg
Color tones are always added ABOVE the note they're replacing in the
chord (basic arranging 101).
08.06.2011 - 00:12
Of course when playing symmetrical diminished patterns 0all inversions
and all step above[high degree] colors can be employed but then you
are borrowing a 12 tone or math based 0 technique and forcing it on
the key 0which is really a different topic.
0 0 0 0Greg Clayton
* 0 0 How long has this been going on, 0Someday My Prince will come=
,
My Romance, 0original first chord of Stella, 0 0 original chord in =
Dm
Alone together Bm E7 is really Ab dim w E in melody. 0 Many many many
more
Thanks for the kind words re my chords:-)
And thanks for letting me know about that AbDim. with an E in Alone
together.
I alway wondered what was originally in that tune before somebody put
that B-/E7 in there.
Thanks,
Bg
08.06.2011 - 00:18
Isn't that usually done in G? 0>
MK- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Yup, You're right in 2 fake books I have it's in G.
On gigs with Sax leaders it's come up in F lately, I guess they'd
rather be in G than in A.
No difference to me tho.
Thanks,
Bg
08.06.2011 - 01:06
On Jun 7, 2:490pm, Bg <ottg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is 0an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a 0half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, 0is it still 0an Ab dim 0Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Bg
Yeah, I take the D out of the Abdim7 chord and add E and G because
they're the colour tones that are in the melody.
It's ironic that the next melody note is an A natural, which totally
obliterates the Abdim add B and E chord that just came before it.
I usually harmonize that with an Adim7 to get to the Gm7 in the next
bar, and then harmonize the C and A melody notes with Cdim7 and Adim7
(that'll be $5 ; - ).
The standard key is G (that was the first song I learned in guitar
lessons), but I used to play it with a chick singer (who we used to
nickname "Any Port In A Storm") who sang the fuckin' shit out of it in
F.
If we lived in a truly just world, I would've produced and arranged a
version of her doing "OACD" and it would've been a hit record, and I
would've made a million bucks and retired to Fla.
But we don't and I didn't, so I'm still a working stiff like all the
rest of you.
Of course it didn't help that Barbra had cleaned up with it about 20
years earlier ; - )
On A Clear Day Key of F, measure 14 calls for Ab Dim.
Melody at that Point is 0an E and a G, yet it still sounds good even
tho I treat it as G13/Ab.
We've had this discussion lately re some Bossas and I understand that
on a dim. chord we can take a note from the Arp and move it up a tone,
Cool
Well, here there 2 notes down a 0half step from Ab dim or up a tone
from F Dim.
So, with 2 alterd notes, 0is it still 0an Ab dim 0Chord.
I've learned on this group that we can take any note in a Dim Chord
and move it up a tone, lile I hear Bill Evans doing in Someday My
Prints.
When doing that, are we supposed to Add a note by a tone in addition
to the arp or take a note out of the Arp and move it up a tone, which
is certainly easier on guitar?
Bg
Yeah, I take the D out of the Abdim7 chord and add E and G because
they're the colour tones that are in the melody.
It's ironic that the next melody note is an A natural, which totally
obliterates the Abdim add B and E chord that just came before it.
I usually harmonize that with an Adim7 to get to the Gm7 in the next
bar, and then harmonize the C and A melody notes with Cdim7 and Adim7
(that'll be $5 ; - ).
The standard key is G (that was the first song I learned in guitar
lessons), but I used to play it with a chick singer (who we used to
nickname "Any Port In A Storm") who sang the fuckin' shit out of it in
F.
If we lived in a truly just world, I would've produced and arranged a
version of her doing "OACD" and it would've been a hit record, and I
would've made a million bucks and retired to Fla.
But we don't and I didn't, so I'm still a working stiff like all the
rest of you.
Of course it didn't help that Barbra had cleaned up with it about 20
years earlier ; - )
08.06.2011 - 01:22
On Jun 7, 3:410pm, slimguit sixstringer <slimgitsixstrin...@gmail.com>
wrote:
In my experience 0the Maj7th and 9th of the key [2 notes you refer to]
sound best as the top voice on flat 3 diminished[which of course is
tonic diminished{ there being only 3 dim chords} ] and are the most
often used 0non chord tone melody notes in Standards or Tonality based
songs. * 0The flat 6th[d flat] is often used inside the chord 0ie: F
Ab Cb E 0becomes F Ab Db E 0. 0 0 0of course you can add anothe=
r 3rd
interval on top 0F Ab Cb E G 0 producing F dim maj 7 0Nine. Or just
move the voicings up a 3rd 0to 0 Ab Cb D G 0 or Ab Cb E G 0.
0 . 0 0 0The 11 tone is less often used in my experience. 0 0=
There
are many voicings and inversions of the above but this is the basis ,
"In songs", 0in the sense of the song/ chord function you mention.
Of course when playing symmetrical diminished patterns 0all inversions
and all step above[high degree] colors can be employed but then you
are borrowing a 12 tone or math based 0 technique and forcing it on
the key 0which is really a different topic.
0 0 0 0Greg Clayton
* 0 0 How long has this been going on, 0Someday My Prince will come=
,
My Romance, 0original first chord of Stella, 0 0 original chord in =
Dm
Alone together Bm E7 is really Ab dim w E in melody. 0 Many many many
more
It seems like these "diminished returns" came to Tin Pan Alley from
songwriters who were influenced by Operetta composers, who in turn
were influenced by Wagner's harmonies.
There's certainly a shitload of great tunes that use the biii dim7 and
i dim7 chords with color tones added that were written in 20s, 30s and
40s.
wrote:
In my experience 0the Maj7th and 9th of the key [2 notes you refer to]
sound best as the top voice on flat 3 diminished[which of course is
tonic diminished{ there being only 3 dim chords} ] and are the most
often used 0non chord tone melody notes in Standards or Tonality based
songs. * 0The flat 6th[d flat] is often used inside the chord 0ie: F
Ab Cb E 0becomes F Ab Db E 0. 0 0 0of course you can add anothe=
r 3rd
interval on top 0F Ab Cb E G 0 producing F dim maj 7 0Nine. Or just
move the voicings up a 3rd 0to 0 Ab Cb D G 0 or Ab Cb E G 0.
0 . 0 0 0The 11 tone is less often used in my experience. 0 0=
There
are many voicings and inversions of the above but this is the basis ,
"In songs", 0in the sense of the song/ chord function you mention.
Of course when playing symmetrical diminished patterns 0all inversions
and all step above[high degree] colors can be employed but then you
are borrowing a 12 tone or math based 0 technique and forcing it on
the key 0which is really a different topic.
0 0 0 0Greg Clayton
* 0 0 How long has this been going on, 0Someday My Prince will come=
,
My Romance, 0original first chord of Stella, 0 0 original chord in =
Dm
Alone together Bm E7 is really Ab dim w E in melody. 0 Many many many
more
It seems like these "diminished returns" came to Tin Pan Alley from
songwriters who were influenced by Operetta composers, who in turn
were influenced by Wagner's harmonies.
There's certainly a shitload of great tunes that use the biii dim7 and
i dim7 chords with color tones added that were written in 20s, 30s and
40s.
08.06.2011 - 01:37
It's ironic that the next melody note is an A natural, which totally
obliterates the Abdim add B and E chord that just came before it.
I've got F and Bb melody notes to G Min after those E and G Notes.
My apologies to all for posting my query in F, I never even looked in
the book :-(
Bg
obliterates the Abdim add B and E chord that just came before it.
I've got F and Bb melody notes to G Min after those E and G Notes.
My apologies to all for posting my query in F, I never even looked in
the book :-(
Bg
08.06.2011 - 01:41
On Jun 7, 4:060pm, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 7, 2:490pm, Bg <ottg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I usually harmonize that with an Adim7 to get to the Gm7 in the next
bar, and then harmonize the C and A melody notes with Cdim7 and Adim7
(that'll be $5 ; - ).
And a bargain at twice the price, thanks:-)
Bg
On Jun 7, 2:490pm, Bg <ottg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I usually harmonize that with an Adim7 to get to the Gm7 in the next
bar, and then harmonize the C and A melody notes with Cdim7 and Adim7
(that'll be $5 ; - ).
And a bargain at twice the price, thanks:-)
Bg
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