tossing out the garbage

On Aug 20, 7:010pm, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
On 20 Aug, 13:09, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:

> "When the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan gained its
> independence, one of the first laws passed in the new Parliament was
> the dropping of Cyrillic and the adoption of a Latin-based alphabet."

Why not Perso-Arabic script?

He does not hear about that even.

Regards,
Andrius

In article
<9babede1-7230-4dde-abe2-b8cf4b0f3c8c@w6g2000yqw.googlegroups.com>, Dmitry
<dmitrijsfedotovs@inbox.lv> wrote:

On 20 Aug, 20:21, Andrius <ziniatink...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 20, 7:010pm, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:
>
> > On 20 Aug, 13:09, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> > > "When the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan gained its
> > > independence, one of the first laws passed in the new Parliament was
> > > the dropping of Cyrillic and the adoption of a Latin-based alphabet."
>
> > Why not Perso-Arabic script?
>
> He does not hear about that even.
>
> Regards,
> Andrius

I'm sure Gintai knows what the original Azerbaijani script was and
that Azerbaijan is very much of a Soviet type of state. He just
doesn't like Cyrillic script, he prefers Latin.

The current Azeri version of the Latin alphabet has an interesting
idiosyncracy, specifically the use of schwa for [æ], cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_alphabet .

Regards,
Eugene Holman

On Aug 21, 8:4020am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
In article
<81853a73-0e7d-4552-ac81-bb6863ab5...@d21g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, Tada=
s

Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> "When the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan gained its
> independence, one of the first laws passed in the new Parliament was
> the dropping of Cyrillic and the adoption of a Latin-based alphabet."

The Cyrillic alphabet was specifically designed for sibilant-rich
languages. An elaboration of the Greek alphabet, it certainly is not
garbage.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

It is garbage when it is imposed on others by force, against their
will. That's why it was dropped. Just as the Lithuanians rejected
Gra5Edanka a century ago. In trying to ban books in Latin script, the
Russians actually did us a favour by aiding and abetting the demise of
Polonisation. This is because the knygne51iai (book smugglers, who
smuggled in Lithuanian books printed in Tilsit) were not going to risk
their lives smuggling Polish books: they smuggled Lithuanian books
only. So a whole generation grew up with little or no exposure to
Polish books. Plus the Lithuanian "underground" schools (in farmers'
barns, etc.) that operated secretly were a great rallying force that
made Lithuanians appreciate their native language. Trying to ban
something always makes people appreciate it more.

On the subject of books, one of my most cherished possessions is the
school primer ("learn-to-read book") Au51rel47, which is old as I a=
m.
It was issued by the UNHCR workers to my parents in the refugee camp
in Germany where I was born. I treasure it because it is a reprint of
the same book (author: Stepas Zobarskas 204 see below) that was used =
in
independent Lithuania and from which my parents learnt to read. With
a little help from my parents, I taught myself to read Lithuanian from
this book before I even started (English) school. Needless to say, I
was shocked when I found out how crazy English spelling is compared to
Lithuanian, which is perfectly logical. About the only tiny departure
from regularity that I can think of in Lithuanian is that sometimes
the spelling of third person future tense verbs reflects the phonetic
reality rather than morphological regularity. Where you might expect
*ve5Es, you get just "ve51". Ditto in the singular imperatives. W=
here
you might expect *b47g! or perhaps *b47gk!, you get just "b47k!=
".


Zobarskas, Stepas
*1911 I 30 Pamalei51yje (Anyk514Di53 r.), 2001984 VI =
9 Woodhavene, NY (JAV);
prozininkas, vert47jas, leid47jas.

Baig49s Roki51kio gimnazij45, persik47l47 gyventi 4=
F Kaun45, 1927 prad47jo
dirbti 50vietimo ministerijos Knyg53 leidimo komisijoje, 193020=
334 buvo
5Eurnalo 50viesos keliai redaktoriaus pavaduotojas, 193420344=
redagavo
5Eurnal45 vaikams 5Dibur47lis (su pertrauka: 19352033=
6 Pary5Eiaus Ecole des
hautes etudes sociales ir Alliance Francaise studijavo pranc5Bz53 k=
alb45
ir literat5Br45). Pasitrauk49s i51 Lietuvos, 1946 studijavo=
kalbas
Heidelbergo universitete. 1947 atvyk49s 4F JAV, 194920350 New=
Yorko
universitete studijavo angl53 kalb45. Greta pagrindinio darbo banke=
,
1951 redagavo literat5Brin4F 5Eurnal45 Gabija, 1956 leidin=
4F vaikams
Eglut47. Jau pokarin47je Vokietijoje suvok49s, kad b5Btina =
versti lietuvi53
ra51ytoj53 k5Bryb45 4F kitas kalbas, 1962 Niujorke 4=
Fsteig47 knyg53 leidykl45
20EManylands20C (v47liau vadinosi 20EManyland Books=
20C), kuri daugiausia leido
lietuvi53 ra51ytoj53 k5Brini53 vertimus 4F angl5=
3 k.

I51leido noveli53 rinkinius Anapus mi51ko (1936), Moters stipry=
b47 (1938),
Arti 5Eem47s (1943), Savame kra51te (1947); vaikams 203 e=
il47ra514Di53 rinkin4F
Mano t47vi51k47j (1934), apysakas, pasakas ir apsakym53 rin=
kinius Gerasis
aitvaras (1934), Ganykl53 vaikai (1934, Lietuvos Raudonojo Kry5Eiau=
s
premija), Broli53 ie51kotoja (1939), Pab47g47lis (1939, Lie=
tuvos Raudonojo
Kry5Eiaus premija), Per 51alt4F ir v47j45 (1940), Pauk=
514Diai ir 5Emon47s
(1940), Gandras ir gandryt47 (1946), Riesta5Bsio s5Bnus (1947),
Neklau5Eados (1951) ir kt. 50viesos keliuose paskelb47 slapyvar=
d5Eiais St.
Malai51is, S. Pamalai51ietis, Stp. Daujotas, Valentinas Kavolis
pasira51yt53 knyg53 recenzij53.
Su ? Ambra51ka pareng47 populiaraus vadov47lio prad5Eios mo=
kykloms Au51rel47
3 dalis (daug kart53 i51leistas Lietuvoje ir po karo Vokietijoje), =
su
Jonu Ais4Diu 203 metra51t4F Gabija (1954), 20EManyl=
and Books20C i51leist53 knyg53:
antologijas Selected Lithuanian Short Stories (Rinktiniai lietuvi53
apsakymai, 1963), The Lithuanian Short Story (Lietuvi53 apsakymas,
1966)..
I51 pranc5Bz53 k. i51vert47 Miguelio de Unamuno Teta Tu=
la (1937), Knuto
Hamsuno Po rudens dangumi (1938), Guy de Maupassant209o Da5Eytas =
vualis
(1958), W.S. Maughamo ir kt. ra51ytoj53 k5Brini53.
Zobarsko knygos kitomis kalbomis: vokie4Di53, angl53 k.

Did5Eioji Zobarsko k5Brybos dalis skirta vaikams ir jaunimui. Prad=
47j49s
eil47mis, greitai per47jo 4F proz45, kurioje ry51kus po=
linkis 4F
psichologizm45, veik47j53 poelgi53 ir vidini53 i51g=
yvenim53 analiz49. Peiza5Eas
atlieka veiksmo fono bei ornamentikos funkcij45. Vartojami religiniai
4Fvaizd5Eiai, liturgin47 atributika.
Psichologinio tipo novel47se dominuoja kaimo 5Emoni53 tipa5=
Eai ir 5Eem47s
poetizacija.

On Aug 21, 11:4620am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
In article
<696d9994-e5ff-47a7-90d5-34bc096d3...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, Tada=
s



Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> On Aug 21, 8:40DC2DA0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) w=
rote:
> > In article
> > <81853a73-0e7d-4552-ac81-bb6863ab5...@d21g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, =
TadaD
> s

> > Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:
> > > "When the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan gained its
> > > independence, one of the first laws passed in the new Parliament wa=
s
> > > the dropping of Cyrillic and the adoption of a Latin-based alphabet=
."

> > The Cyrillic alphabet was specifically designed for sibilant-rich
> > languages. An elaboration of the Greek alphabet, it certainly is not
> > garbage.

> It is garbage when it is imposed on others by force, against their
> will.

Isn't that a classic case of confusing the message with the messenger?

Can you be serious? What was the message? Are you trying to say that
when the Russians banned the Latin alphabet in Lithuania (18642031904=
)
they were somehow trying 203 out of pure kindness 203 to save u=
s from the
backward Latin script, used by so few people in the world? It's not
like there was anything wrong with the Latin-based Lithuanian
alphabet. It is up there with the most phonetic on Earth. Our one
idiosyncrasy 203 and I kind of like it 203 is that we use a dif=
ferent
grapheme to represent a feature of morphology (not phonetics) in a
couple of cases. Namely, the use of -45 to distinguish the feminine
nominative (e.g. Lietuv30) from the accusative (e.g. Lie~tuv45) and=
the
use of 53 (instead of 5B) to represent an accusative singular case =
of
certain nouns and the genitive plural of all nouns. By the way, that
last item is a terrific example of morphological and (almost) phonetic
correspondence between Lithuanian and Latin. All Latin genitive
plurals end in -um; all Lithuanian genitive plurals end in -53.

On Aug 21, 1:450pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
On Aug 20, 11:110pm, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:



> On 20 Aug, 20:21, Andrius <ziniatink...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Aug 20, 7:010pm, Dmitry <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote:

> > > On 20 Aug, 13:09, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:

> > > > "When the Soviet Union collapsed and Azerbaijan gained its
> > > > independence, one of the first laws passed in the new Parliament =
was
> > > > the dropping of Cyrillic and the adoption of a Latin-based alphab=
et."

> > > Why not Perso-Arabic script?

> > He does not hear about that even.

> > Regards,
> > Andrius

> I'm sure Gintai knows what the original Azerbaijani script was and
> that Azerbaijan is very much of a Soviet type of state. 0He just
> doesn't like Cyrillic script, he prefers Latin.

Type of state and language are very different things. Aseri language
are very close to turkish, so using the same script seems to be a
logic solution.

Perfectly right. Same for Moldova vis-0-vis Romania. I think Ukraine
should smarten up and drop Cyrillic as soon as possible. And I
guarantee that it will eventually.

On Aug 21, 6:490pm, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
In article
<388a9489-7bd2-4d0b-9bda-684c16dc0...@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Tada=
s

Blinda <tadas.bli...@lycos.es> wrote:

<deletions>

> Perfectly right. 0Same for Moldova vis-DE0-vis Romania. 0

In Soviet Moldavia a foreign script and language, 'Moldavian', were
imposed by brute force. Actually, if we really get down to the essence of
alphabet spread, both the Roman and the Cyrillic alphabet were imposed on
nations in conjunction with Christianity, a world view and ideology that
not all forced to adhere to them necessarily would have chosen if allowed
the choice. The Cyrillic alphabet, especially designed for the sound
systems of the south and eastern Slavic languages, suits them quite well.
So much so that in Bulgaria they actually have a national holiday, Slavic
Alphabet and Culture Day, celebrating their invention:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?idD103910

I once saw a parade in Sofia on Slavic Alphabet and Culture Day. It was
quite amusing to see children dressed up as Cyrillic letters marching dow=
n
the street. I'll never forget the little boy dressed as a yat'.

> I think Ukraine
> should smarten up and drop Cyrillic as soon as possible. 0And I
> guarantee that it will eventually.

Ukraine did not have the Cyrillic alphabet, with its specific Ukrainian
characters, forced upon it in the manner that Cyrillic was forced on
Moldavian and Azeri, and the Slavic Alphabet Day is celebrated there to
some extent, cf.http://www.nrcu.gov.ua/index.php?idD148&listidD14521.=
The
Cyrillic alphabet was originally developed by Orthodox missionaries from
the Greek (and to a lesser extent, Hebrew) alphabets to allow a one-to-on=
e
letter solution for sibilant and affricate-rich Old Bulgarian (aka Old
Church Slavonic). It spread along with the spread of Orthodox
Christianity. Indeed, this is why Serbia tends to use Cyrillic, while
Croatian, virtually the same language, uses the Latin alphabet, since
missionaries from Rome got there first. Serbian is the only language in
Europe which is written in two alphabets, neither is there any pressure t=
o
drop Cyrillic.

Since Ukraine does not deny or feel discomfort about its Orthodox
heritage, there is no reason to drop the alphabet that it has been using
for more than a millennium. Every passing day sees millions more pages
produced in Ukrainin, thus strengthening the case for retaining its
current arthographical basis. In today's computerized world even complex
writing systems such as Tamil and Japanese are no challenge for the
computer.

On the other hand, Azeri, essentially a distinct cultural dialect and
alternative national variety of Turkish, and Moldovan, a Romanian dialect
artifically infused by the Soviet authorities with Russian and Ukrainian
loanwords, have been Latinized with the longer-term goal of meging them
with standard Turkish and Romanian, respectively. Ukrainian is too
linguisticlly and culturally distinct from Russian for this to be a
serious option.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

Wrong: adopting Latin script would reinforce Ukraine's linguistic and
cultural difference from Russia. The sooner they do, the better.